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Posted on 18/02/09 6:16:05 PM |
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Steve Caplin
Administrator Posts: 7047 Reply  |
The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
Glen made this comment in the Friday Challenge. I didn't want to disrupt the flow there, so I've moved it to a more permanent home here. Here's his post in full:
Brave words indeed, Glen - and I know you've come under fire in the past for making outspoken comments. Before the flaming begins, I'd just like to say that, to a large extent, you're right: the atmosphere here is largely congratulatory rather than critical. At least, that's one way of looking at it. But there have been many moments of constructive appraisal, when members have pointed out omissions, mistakes or details that need to be corrected. And in nearly every case, these observations have been taken in the spirit in which they were intended, and frequently an entry has been reworked to reflect those changes. It would be too easy for it to appear as if a member were simply sniping, and this can lead to bad feeling. This may well be why so many shy away from pointing out mistakes, for fear of offending the original poster. When I started the Friday Challenge, I was in two minds over whether to write it up at the end of every week - I didn’t want people to think they were being tested. I hope I've now got the balance right. It's true that there's less criticism from other forum members than there used to be. But there are also fewer fights than there used to be - I remember you nearly coming to blows at least once, Glen. So what's it to be? Do we want fellow forum members to be our critics? Or would we all prefer to leave it to my undoubtedly flawed and partial judgment at the end of the week? I now declare the discussion open... |
Posted on 18/02/09 6:23:51 PM |
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katew
Virtual Virtuoso Posts: 681 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
To be honest, I don't really agree with Glen. I think there's a lot of constructive criticism each week, and as you say, people do take these points on board. I like the forum the way it is. I think people can be wary of criticising because the written word doesn't always come across the way you meant it to. As regards his comment about the head on my picture, I thought it looked a bit large myself, but I fitted it exactly over the head that was already there. Had Glen pointed it out in the normal run of forum conversation, I would have taken it on board and simply explained why it seemed so big. I like your weekly roundup. You earn a living from this sort of work, so your comments are valued. But I still like the feedback from other members. |
Posted on 18/02/09 7:36:02 PM |
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Deborah Morley
Makeover Magician Posts: 1319 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
I must admit I agree with one thing that Glen said - about the chatroom thing, was there not a thing a while ago about people only posting twice? I do think that if someone has done a particularly good challenge that it should be fine to say so. Giving constructive criticism, yes I do agree, but it can be awkward, so I personally tend to steer away from it (coward). So I will leave that one to you Steve! And keeping up the great work Steve - so thats 3 things I agree with Glen! I also miss seeing his work which dare I say it - I enjoy! |
Posted on 18/02/09 8:45:36 PM |
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Ben Mills
Luminous Luminary Posts: 570 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
I think that I agree for the most part with what Glen says(sorry Kate). Perhaps we need three threads. Constructive criticism is to be welcomed at all times.It should be encouraged and should have a thread to itself. Other comment, of the "mutual admiration society" kind could possibly be expressed in a different thread, where those who wish to, could indulge themselves. This would leave the Friday challenge thread for images only. Members could then choose whether to look at the pictures, take part in a constructive debate or bathe in the warm approbation of their fellows (or all three). whatever floats your boat at the time. I have learned a lot from the members here and, of course, from Steve's weekly critique, for this I will always be grateful (this bit should be in the mutual admiration society thread) I will continue to participate in the Friday Challenge whatever is decided. Ben. |
Posted on 18/02/09 8:55:49 PM |
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rufus
Destructive Demon Posts: 243 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
It's nice to hear from you again Glen, I used to enjoy seeing your work and reading your comments which were both witty and enlightening. Like you, I don't submit much these days though I'm not sure why. I see a lot of mutual admiration in the forum, which can be a little tedious. People seem to take the safe option of keeping quiet when something isn't quite right, I know I do. Constructive criticism can be difficult to get right. I remember early on asking for comments on my work and I have never been offended by any that I received although I didn’t always agree with it. It should be assumed that people express their views with the best of intentions. rufus |
Posted on 18/02/09 9:14:15 PM |
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maiden
Golden Gif Gagster Posts: 471 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
In some respects I agree with Glen entirely - but in other ways I'm not 100% sure things have changed for the worse - just changed that's all. There isn't as much critique as there used to be which the critique was a good thing although at times it felt like petty tirades about stuff that wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. Sometimes I feel that the FC is a little overwhelmed with needless comments and posts. I'm impressed by the level of talent displayed and the diversity of interpretation of a challenge's brief - although at times some of the interpretations don't match the challenge brief in any respect and therefore it would seem that they have missed the point of the excercise which is to imagine you have been assigned a brief by a prospective customer and no doubt that customer would not be best pleased to find that you had completely rewritten their brief for some wild diverse interpretation. Nonetheless we all have different agendas mostly I find now the people who are active on the Forums are here to have fun in Photoshop and not for commercial reason which seemed to be the chief agenda for the original set of forum members. I don't feel they have moved away from the forums because things have changed here but simply because they have moved on - either found the job they were looking for or lost interest in Photoshopping which can happen. My own personal agenda? Well I would have liked to have done something professional in Photoshop but selling myself was never my strong point and now I find I have limited time and greater responsibilities plus my age is catching up on me and James (my other-half) is in hospital suffering with chronic pancreatitis which will have to be removed sometime in the near future - So career-hopping life-altering changes are not on the cards for me, unfortunately, so I'm here to keep my hand in with practicing Photoshop and enjoying it as a hobby. The one thing that is a petty bug-bear with me is the many many "Thank You, Steve" comments at the end of a challenge, poor Steve must feel overwhelmed each Friday  lol |
Posted on 18/02/09 9:15:13 PM |
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Ocker
* Posts: 54 Reply |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
This is a very pertinent question that Glen has raised, and thanks to Steve for bringng it in to the open. It's very probably the reason that I have only got involved in the Friday Challenge once or twice. Looking at the latest Challenge, there are (and seriously, I'm not trying to offend anyone), some really cringeworthy attempts. But they get comments, like 'cool!' and 'great first work!'. These people will go away feeling all warm and fuzzy and thinking that they actually have some Photoshop skills! Offended? And that's the problem. How can you hold such a (friendly) competition, and expect real, honest criticism? It's not going to happen. So because forum members don't want to offend other forum members, it will tend to be always congratulatory. But surely the whole idea of buying Steve's book was to learn and improve your skills in Photoshop? That's why we're all here, isn't it? We want to learn. We offer some work. It could do with improvement. We get offered constructive criticism. We learn from it. But seriously, I can't see that with the Friday Challenge, because too many people would get offended if there was real constructive criticism. Remember why we bought the book — to learn! On a lighter note, we are not all so unskilled. You've only got to pick up a copy of (for example The Sun and occasionally they have a big photo that 'has been retouched by our experts' to show how someone (insert celebrity of choice) would look if they were really a fireman (insert occupation of choice). These invariably look as as if a head has just been plonked on top of another photo. And that's the sort of thing we must avoid. So I don't have an answer to this predicament, other than to have two Friday challenges (same original pic), one for serious people that want to learn (and will relish constructive criticism), and another for the fun factor, where no one takes it very seriously. I know which one would be most popular. . . Ocker |
Posted on 18/02/09 9:54:57 PM |
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GKB
Magical Montagist Posts: 4033 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
I read Glen’s comments with a sense of ‘yes, I know just what you are talking about’ and I rather agree with the drift of his message; there has been a lot of back-slapping and less critique of late. I think that Ben has put in to words just what my reply would be. During my many years as a semi-pro photographer I have had many people ask me which camera to buy that would improve their photography. My reply was always the same …‘almost any camera will do but you must be very critical of your own work and listen to constructive criticism from others’. Exactly the same attitude applies to Photoshop work and that is where this forum, potentially, is so good in comparison to others. We have a bunch of very talented people here with a wealth of knowledge behind them. I think that we should feel very privileged that Steve takes the time to run this forum and set it up in the way he has. It would be a great shame if it were to end up like some other sites I can think of. It’s a terrific information exchange and I would hate to think that we ended up with a site where all that was said was ‘yeah, man, that’s just awesome’. Photoshop is an amazing programme and if you don’t know the answer to a problem there are people here that probably do know the answer. Glen, you have produced some really excellent work on the forum in the past and it’s nice to see you back. But you, too, have something to contribute with your own experience and it would be great if you and others came back more often to provide input for up and coming Photoshoppers. That way we get more of the more critical input…..with perhaps the odd pat on the back for those that might feel the need for it. Gordon _________________ Why isn't 'phonetic' spelled the way it sounds? |
Posted on 18/02/09 10:14:01 PM |
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maiden
Golden Gif Gagster Posts: 471 Reply |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
Not sure if Steve would agree or not - but one solution to improving the Friday Challenge is to perhaps give an incentive for people to do their best rather than rush an entry. This would make it more of a competition but a little competition is good as it pushes someone to improve their skills. The incentive could be in the form of some points awarded to the most improved Photoshopper - Not necessarily the best entry but the one who has shown the greatest level of imagination and guile in following the FC's brief. Those points could be added up each week and use to say purchase a stock photo image from Steve's TheFullMontage website for example. But that's entirely up to Steve and Steve would have to judge who had demonstrated the greatest level of skill in producing their image. Just a thought. |
Posted on 18/02/09 11:29:06 PM |
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tooquilos
Wizard of Oz Posts: 2904 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
"What about looping gifs? no one mentions people disappearing off an image suddenly – when all that’s needed is some thought about how it will run and how to get the players on the scene(and off again), or even a fade to black would be preferable to the ‘ptoooof! and now they’re gone’. " Thank you for invaluable critique Glen. Just want to point out a thing or two. When I post my images each week, I create 3...one static (which fulfills the brief and criteria) 1 gif and 1 .wav. The .gif and .wav are optional to view. that it why they are linked to a photobucket account. They are created this way for a reason. To accommodate the different types of personalities we have here on the forum...from the easy go lucky ones to the self flagellators. The wav and gif are created for fun. There is enough misery in this world with day to day living, I feel humour is a welcome relief. During my time on this forum, which is coming onto 2 years now, I have learned everything I know about PS. I have been inspired by and encouraged other members. Steve has provided a wonderful place here for us to learn and laugh and understand. Ok, sometimes we may need to sift through the countless posts of fragmented ramblings but all this adds to the atmosphere and the colour of the forum. Through this forum I have personally met and developed strong friendship with a variety of members. I think its just a case of accepting that not everyone sees the world as you do and moving on. Accepting change is easier than resisting it. Sitting there stewing over is unhealthy for the soul. Maiden, I do hope Michael is ok. Illness in the family is a terrible thing. I wish both of you all the best. Anna  |
Posted on 18/02/09 11:54:29 PM |
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vibeke
Kreative Kiwi Posts: 2166 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
I think it's nice that people want to leave comments, but Glen is right it's probably a little too much 'great, wow' etc, rather than constructive criticism, it also clutters the challenge, so it's easy to miss entries. Have a look at this site: http://www.photoshoptalent.com/ where you can leave a comment with the entry, but you have to click on the comment to actually see them. All the comments are with the entry It's also more likely that people would give constructive criticism and praise, when it's all kept with the entry. Might even make your work easier Steve, if member have already pointed out some of the obvious failing. It's nice when people are welcomed to the forum, but perhaps we could just send them a personal message. _________________ Perfect confidence is granted to the less talented as a consolation prize. |
Posted on 19/02/09 00:05:12 AM |
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Glen
Montage Maestro Posts: 282 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
Wow, awesome, amazing etc etc (that was a joke) First off, thank you for reading my post and for your replies so far. I haven’t just written it, lit the blue touch paper and ran off, I was sure I was in for some stick from you all but have been pleasantly suprised, I always intended to return to add my comments. As there have been a number of replies so far I’d like to add my replies. Steve – Yes there has been rare episodes of constructive criticism but mainly backslapping which is what I first posted about. Of course there are fewer fights, hardly anyone offers constructive opinions. I remember certain members disagreeing with my comments before but they were all worked out as none of my comments were malicious, they were constructive and a couple of PM’s smoothed out any misunderstandings that need not have been forum knowledge. Katew – I’m afraid I have to disagree with you regarding the constructive bit, only one comment was along those lines this week which prompted my post. Whether or not someone earns a living from doing this makes their comments no less valued. (I do too by the way) – maybe that’s a good example of how the written word comes over differently to how it was said (at least I hope that’s the case) Deborah – three things – great – I’m not after people agreeing with me I just wanted to air my feelings about how the forum doesn’t do what it used to. (and before I become a pariah) it’s ok to say you liked my work, and I thank you for that. I agree a pat on the back now and again doesn’t go amiss at all. Ben - 'Constructive criticism is to be welcomed at all times'.You’ve summed it up in fewer words than it took me. Thank you. I wonder if three thread levels would work, how about Private Messages? Rufus – Nice to hear from you again, I so echo your remarks about people expressing their views with the best of intentions – isn’t that what it’s all about? Becky – We’ve had our words in the past but I hope you’ll agree with me that we sorted them out in the end and that no hard feelings were held (certainly not from me) and that the comments made were valid and reasonable. You are one of the old crew who still visits, good on yer. I’m not too sure about the wholly commercial reasons for members back then, some perhaps but I have PM from a member who says ' Now its all 'thats amazing'... 'excellent'.. blah blah, I dont think I am actually learning anything on this site anymore?' what a shame. Oh, and I don’t think it’s changed 100% for the worse either, people just don’t want to offend – and shouldn’t either but, lets be honest and help each other eh? Ocker - I think you’ve got it right - not sure if it's a competition though Gordon – thank you for your comments. I reckon you’ve taken the gist of what I was saying in the spirit it was meant. Thanks for the personal comments, I feel that if I don’t join in with the backslapping I’m a bit of an outcast. And Ben, like I said you summed it up. Anna –‘Thank you for invaluable critique Glen.’ I detect a hint of sarcasm in your reply, I hope not, it was not my intention to slight anyone in the forum and there have been plenty of other now you see ‘em now you don’t gifs before. What if Steve had made those comments, would they have then been 'invaluable'? Becky touched on constructing a gif a few weeks ago, how it should run etc, and she should know and she was thanked for it too. I don’t deny that humour belong in this world, it’s all the better for it. I just thought that this was a place to learn that’s all and I guess I don’t see the world as you do either. I would be happy to discuss this (possible misunderstanding) further with you on PM if you wish Vibeke - what a great idea That’s all for now. Thanks for all your replies _________________ most of the lack of sunshine in our lives is caused by us standing in our own shadow |
Posted on 19/02/09 01:28:54 AM |
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mguyer
Incisive Incisor Posts: 799 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
My entries must be pretty mediocre since I get very few compliments and certainly no back slapping. From my point of view, I have learned a lot by participating in this forum and I have experienced many enjoyable hours as a result of this forum. About a year and a half ago as a result of undergoing chemotherapy I was unable to concentrate sufficiently to particpate and that left a certain void in my life. How about if we criticize when derserved, compliment when deserved, and understand that we are in this to have a good time. The learning part is certain to accompany the having a good time part. I think that compliments encourage people to reach for higher levels. Marty |
Posted on 19/02/09 06:07:35 AM |
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Nick Curtain
Model Master Posts: 1768 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
The beauty of this forum and the Friday Challenge is that it's open to all ability. Before joining I had sent Steve one of my pics for some comment and he suggested I put images on here so others could give appraisal. I thought my amateur ability would come under fire, but that was not to be the case and I've had some nice comments from most of the regular participants on here. I do comment on work and hold my hands up to the odd 'great image' or 'well done' but this is done with the best intention and to encourage. If I were to offer serious critique at every obvious flaw, then people would soon get pretty cheesed off. We have to take stock of the fact that this is not a forum for the sole use of professionals, so if there is some substandard work on here, who cares, let's all have fun. Final point though, the FC has turned into a bit of a chat room over the last 6 months and to be honest some of the comments leave me totally confused and bewildered. So, let's stick to the 'well dones' and try and move away from the meaningless meanderings which are now appearing weekly. |
Posted on 19/02/09 09:23:58 AM |
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The Mad Lep
Four-Leafed Fantasist Posts: 323 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
I wouldn't change a thing about the FC. It's helpful, people learn a lot from it, there is ample constructive criticism in it already and thankfully it's not professional. Most folks on here aren't pro's, and I imagine they don't appreciate being poked at when they've spent hours trying to perfect a difficult image (perhaps with limited skills to begin with). The majority of members here already know there are flaws are in their images, without a forum full of people pointing them out all over again. They post their work when they've gotten it as satisfactory as they can, and Steve then comments on what needs to be tidied up. Not everyone posts in the FC to receive constructive criticism, some do it to share in the fun and have their ideas seen on a small scale. If you require more critical reviews of your work, or to give some on other's work, perhaps a site dedicated to advanced Photoshop work would be better suited. As regards the amount of posts a person makes, isn't limiting free speech on a message board a bit ridiculous? So what if someone posts a few more times than others, all you have to do is scroll down past it. Small potatoes in the grand scheme of things, surely? If this place turns into some sort of totalitarian flagellation hang out, a lot of people will mosey on elsewhere, and that would be a terrible shame. People learn just as well with encouragement as they do with well meaning criticism. I'm with Steve on this. He's the man, let him point out the vital stuff and everyone else help or praise where they deem necessary. **Gets down off soapbox.** |
Posted on 19/02/09 09:51:04 AM |
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Jeepy
Modeleur Mystique Posts: 174 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
I read everything, but I have not understand everything, I am new on the forum. I have no training in relation to PS. I acknowledge that I am almost always off topic and I put 2 pictures when the subject inspires. I'm sorry if it offends some of you. I come to FC to show my pictures and have comments for Improvement my work. Should you impose strict rules? Personal message to Tooquilos: I do not have say, but I love your 3 versions each weeks. (Very funny version Wav) |
Posted on 19/02/09 10:45:52 AM |
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Deborah Morley
Makeover Magician Posts: 1319 Reply |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
Having read more comments, I think that (depending on how much more work it would be for Steve and David), that it would be a good idea to have a separate thread every week for people to place comments, complimentary or otherwise, and then after one week for that to be deleted if necessary and start a new one. Mad Lep's comment about limiting speech on a message board: I don't consider the FC to be a message board - it is for images. If there was a separate thread this would allow people to chat. We all have very varied talents and imagination on this forum, and it would be a shame for anyone to leave, but I do agree with Nick's last comment. Initially, looking back the 2 post image was to cut down work for Steve. |
Posted on 19/02/09 11:38:35 AM |
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The Mad Lep
Four-Leafed Fantasist Posts: 323 Reply |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
Not trying to be argumentative here, because I do see where you're all coming from, but there are already enough limits here. Limits on the type of image/Photoshop creation you can post; certain images or image genres appear to upset members. We've seen that from past FC arguments/discussions. Now there's talk of limiting the amount of posts a person can make - in a thread which is meant to teach us how to improve our work by having comments made - as well as limiting the praise while giving more constructive criticism. Is this going to stop short of putting little black "Censored" patches over certain aspects of an image? Where are we going to draw the line? In that case would it be best to use the FC to just post an image only, and nobody will learn anything? Sorry if this sounds vaguely televangelist, and I'm not going to make any more comments in this thread because I've said my piece. Twice! Lol. But I implore that this forum not be made into the kind of place where people are afraid to post for fear of censure of some kind. |
Posted on 19/02/09 12:53:26 PM |
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Steve Mac
Grunge Genie Posts: 539 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
One way of cutting down some of the posts would be to send a private message. If you want to pass comments or go off subject, a PM is just as easy to send, especially if it doesn't pertain to anyone else or it's in another language. Becky wrote something that I have always been on the fence about. Thanking Steve for his comments on posts at the end of the week. There are times that I have not sent a thank you and wondered if that was rude, as Steve has taken the time to view my work and give me his feedback. On the other hand, does he really want to go back and read all of those thank you's? Steve, I would like to know how you feel about this. For myself, I just want to acknowledge my gratitude for you and your site, but if you take it as understood then we're good. For the record, I don't have a problem with anyone pointing out flaws in my work. I welcome it. Pete made a comment this week about the transparency of the woman's dress that a lot of people missed. I being one of them. That's the kind of comments I like to see. It just adds to my mental checklist of things to watch for. |
Posted on 19/02/09 2:00:59 PM |
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Cl&m&nt
** Posts: 112 Reply  |
Re: The Friday Challenge: constructive criticism?
I am not very old on this forum but I have the same feeling that Glen. Many blabla but little criticism! I bought this book for progress in photoshop. This forum is very pleasant to move and especially the Friday challenge. It allows you to compare our works to others. Swades was a very nice review on my picture this week and I was satisfied. The criticism can sometimes be difficult to accept but it is worth a read. The look worn by others on our work will enable us to move forward and try to do better and better. The criticism does not just devalue the work but how it would be able to improve the retailer. One may not agree with the criticism but it is sometimes necessary to have another opinion that ourselves! But criticism does not damage the atmosphere of the forum which is sometimes a little sad. sorry if you don't undertand cl&m&nt |
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