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Posted on 23/05/23 3:54:58 PM
vicho
Ingenious Inca
Posts: 248

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at last: generative AI inside PS
Check it out!


https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/generative-fill.html


Posted on 23/05/23 6:23:11 PM
Steve Caplin
Administrator
Posts: 6822

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
And my review here!

Posted on 23/05/23 9:00:14 PM
DavidMac
Director of Photoshop
Posts: 4898

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
Frankly I find it rather frightening.

When you consider this is just the tiniest primitive tip of the iceberg the opportunities for future malign manipulation are truly limitless.

Sorry but, in the light of current political and media polarisation, I don't look forward to future developments with much pleasure. It's the political manipulators dream!

This is not a comment aimed at Adobe or Photoshop in particular. AI is already spread far, far wider. The idea that it can be somehow 'controlled' or only used 'responsibly' is insanely naive. It will soon be utterly impossible to tell real from fake and the means to achieve this will rest in hands of virtually anyone. No skill required!

_________________
The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it .......

Posted on 23/05/23 10:30:23 PM
michael sinclair
Off-Topic Opportunist
Posts: 1743

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
Very interesting review Steve. There are a few comments I like to make here: I can slice a tomato with a sharp knife, or...I can stick it (the knife) into someone. you can't blame the knife! We all know anything and everything can be subverted to evil ends; for example, If i have been using two bits of flint to try and create some sparks, and someone offers me a box of matches, and then later on a lighter, of course I'm going to welcome the improvements.

At present these are no more than novelties, and I in particular am not particularly enthusiastic about the current developments for two reasons: at 68 years of age I find this "technology" getting to be over my head. Secondly, as a competent artist/illustrator much prefer to utilise my own innate creative skills than this/these so-called innovations.

AI is getting increasingly complex and is somewhat of a dark horse; however, I'm madly infatuated with this wonderful computer game called DEADSIDE whereby in a beautifully forested environment have to survive the elements including the "psychotic" AI Bots mercenaries who will kill you with their automatic weapons if you come within a certain range. after dying many, many times I'm gradually getting the upper hand, and killing them and I never seem to tire of it---long live AI!



Posted on 24/05/23 2:53:06 PM
vicho
Ingenious Inca
Posts: 248

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
Steve Caplin wrote:
And my review here!


wonderful examples! I love how the background blends with the car.
Do you know if the images you produce with AI inside PS are used to feed the AI algorithm?
If so, are there copyright issues?


Posted on 24/05/23 3:00:01 PM
vicho
Ingenious Inca
Posts: 248

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
DavidMac wrote:
Frankly I find it rather frightening.

When you consider this is just the tiniest primitive tip of the iceberg the opportunities for future malign manipulation are truly limitless.

Sorry but, in the light of current political and media polarisation, I don't look forward to future developments with much pleasure. It's the political manipulators dream!

This is not a comment aimed at Adobe or Photoshop in particular. AI is already spread far, far wider. The idea that it can be somehow 'controlled' or only used 'responsibly' is insanely naive. It will soon be utterly impossible to tell real from fake and the means to achieve this will rest in hands of virtually anyone. No skill required!


Even when this AI tech can be used to produce images by virtually anyone, those with knowledge about composition, lighting, photography and art in general will have a clear advantage. Add to that the years of experience of an expert photoshop magician like the ones in this very forum and you have a powerful tool that just like PS can be used for good or evil. Choose your side .



Posted on 24/05/23 4:22:06 PM
DavidMac
Director of Photoshop
Posts: 4898

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
Apologies this is very long but I've had an all day play now and this new tool takes us in new directions.

At the moment it's a kind of idiot savant. Sometimes the results are quite simply ridiculous and sometimes they are just stunningly good and accurate and all in a fraction of the time.

I started simply by letting it fill in missing stuff without specifying any requirement. For the most part it's quite astoundingly good. It's best where it can draw on its past experience and perceptions of what stuff should look like. To test it I deliberately cropped one image so one foot of a foreground character was cropped out of the bottom of picture. I then extended the canvas at the bottom and had it fill in the blank space. It created a new foot and shoe the for the character accurately based on the one I had left in picture!

In cases where the image is unusual and AI can't rely on it's conventional framework and experience the guesses can get completely wild and nonsensical especially if scale and perspective are not clearly defined in the original image. But then that is only to be expected. The more it does the more it will learn.

Giving it text prompts is definitely a question of be careful what you wish for! It's definitely not very sophisticated at parsing sophisticated language. You need to give very clear and simple instructions otherwise it's a bit like those fairy stories where you make a wish and the genie grants it in a totally literal minded and unexpected manner that you didn't mean at all! Some of my misinterpreted requests produced completely unwanted and crazy results.

It also has a 'morality' text filter which tries to avoid misuse. It can be a bit baffling. I gave it a picture of the terrace and pool of the villa where we stayed in Greece. It was completely empty with no people in it to provide any clues as to how people around it might be clad. I selected an empty poolside lounger and asked for a girl in bikini. My request was refused because it "offended user guidelines". So I changed my request the more modest girl in swimsuit. It was refused as offensive as well! So then I simply put girl and this time it provided one. When you request a generative fill it provides three alternatives. Two the three were absolutely perfectly fitted to the contours of the lounger, one lying on her back the other on her face. The third was rather distorted and unusable. But here's the really extraordinary thing ...... all three were in swimsuits! Two bikinis and a one piece. In other words, despite refusing bikini and swimsuit as appropriate input, the AI had recognised the surrounding as pool and loungers and dressed the girls appropriately!

One of my sons, when he was a little boy, was a big fan of Mr T in the 'A Team'. I thought it would be fun to style him accordingly. So I asked for some bling. To my surprise this was also refused on the grounds that it offended guidelines. Gold chains worked and provided him something rather sober a bit like a mayoral chain. So I tried qualifying with 'multiple', 'lots of', 'extravagant' and 'excessive' but all no avail, they were almost completely ignored. Interpretation has a long way to go.

Using generative imagery properly is going be a matter of learning the right questions.

Although I am more impressed than I expected I cannot see myself using it much except perhaps for object removal but there's another new tool specifically for that as well.

Michael Sinclair said "I in particular am not particularly enthusiastic about the current developments for two reasons: at 68 years of age I find this "technology" getting to be over my head. Secondly, as a competent artist/illustrator much prefer to utilise my own innate creative skills than this/these so-called innovations." Aside from having to substitute 80 for 68 the words could be my own so perfectly does he echo my own feelings.

As for the more sinister aspects which I so deeply fear, I shouldn't really have started that ball rolling here - it's not the place. My apologies. I will simply say that I don't feel Michael's knives and matches similes are really adequate in that they both lack the ability to be self programming which is the core philosophy of AI. If you want to respond and discuss this further Michael lets start a completely separate thread in Off Topic.

Like it or not it is quite clear that Adobe is trying to appeal to the huge mass market who don't want to have to acquire the skills we did. Aside from the AI tools the arrival of adjustment presets (most of which are so unsubtle I don't think any of us here will be taking much notice of them) indicates a move in this direction too.

Sticking purely to its implementation in PS I shall be very interested to hear from others who have tried this new ability and whether they feel it will, as claimed, boost their creativity or whether it will risk substituting for it.

Either way, hopefully there will always be enough writers, musicians and artists who are sufficiently passionate to go on making the effort to learn for themselves with all the satisfaction that brings.

_________________
The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it .......

Posted on 24/05/23 4:42:01 PM
DavidMac
Director of Photoshop
Posts: 4898

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
vicho wrote:
Do you know if the images you produce with AI inside PS are used to feed the AI algorithm?
If so, are there copyright issues?


Interesting question. This what Adobe have to say at present:

"Firefly is trained on Adobe Stock’s hundreds of millions professional-grade licensed, high-resolution images, which helps ensure Firefly won’t generate content based on other people’s work, brands, or intellectual property.".

Hmmmm .........

_________________
The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it .......

Posted on 26/05/23 09:47:56 AM
Steve Caplin
Administrator
Posts: 6822

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
So what are we to do with future Friday Challenges? My suggestion is that where Generative AI is used, this should be flagged in each entry.

But maybe I’m just being too resistant. The technology is here, whether we Want it or not. Generative AI is set to become an integral part of Photoshop, and as such we need to embrace it rather than pretending it doesn’t exist.

Thoughts?

Posted on 26/05/23 1:04:44 PM
DavidMac
Director of Photoshop
Posts: 4898

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
The challenge has always been a way of pitting our wits and skills again one another both for fun and, under Steve's guidance, as a learning process. Now some of us have a helper who, in certain circumstances, is way cleverer than we can ever be and without needing any time to do it. In the past, however sophisticated, the tools have been tools that we used with our own skill and application. Now, suddenly we have a tool, that actually creates for us. This gives rise to the question when is my work no longer my work. If we accept that without some kind of definition or control then the challenge becomes meaningless.

To keep the challenge truly a personal challenge the only solution would be to prohibit it's use. But, as Steve points out, we need to embrace it. Soon it will anyway be so inextricably incorporated into so many tools that it will no longer be possible to not use it. Indeed that has already been the case with the selection tools that have used it in more modest form for some time now.

I think, for the present at least, it is fair to insist that it be flagged. Not everybody has the latest equipment capable of running this version of PS and some are using other software. Version inequalities have, of course, always existed, but the new tools are so radically different and so infinitely more powerful that they are going to create a very uneven playing field indeed unless we say clearly and honestly if we have had 'help'.




_________________
The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it .......

Posted on 27/05/23 10:21:02 PM
lwc
Hole in One
Posts: 2615

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
AI is here and it would appear that it can't be stopped. I haven't given it much thought until reading everyone's comments. It isn't likely that I would use it to any great degree. In the hands of a skilled artist however, it could prove to be ' the cat's meow'.

With regard to the challenge, I have never viewed it as a competition. In my case, it is just me against myself and the inherent limitations of the software. Some of my animations work well and some are a great disappointment. I've finished my first entry for this weeks challenge and it is not animated. If nothing else, my making of a non-animated entry serves as a reminder that animations are much easier for me than static endeavors and take considerably less time to make.

If someone chooses to use AI to create an entry for the challenge it really doesn't make any difference to me. Now, if the challenge was a formal competition then it would make sense that an honor system of some sort should be applied...



Posted on 28/05/23 00:07:26 AM
michael sinclair
Off-Topic Opportunist
Posts: 1743

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
Ok, let's set up a challenge: I state that I can do what generative AI can do...and probably better! Give me an example of generative AI and I'll match it or even better it. And I think David might be of the same opinion too.

Posted on 28/05/23 12:07:13 PM
DavidMac
Director of Photoshop
Posts: 4898

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
I am not sure I want to go head to head with AI in the manner of Michael's suggestion. Yes, maybe we could equal or better the result, I am truly not sure. But the fact that, given enough hours, I can do better than something that AI has knocked out in mere seconds sits somehow rather low on the satisfaction scale.

Of course Loyd is quite right, the challenge is not a competition as such. But a tiny element of this has always been present in a very personal 'strut your stuff' kind of way. It is the word 'personal' that is important. I love to see the very different and distinct personal styles, twists and ideas that emerge from our different personalities. To me, that and the wonderful unexpected surprises it can sometimes bring are the real joy of the challenge ............... together with the hope that I can contribute to it.

In my view AI is depersonalising and I, for one, when I see an entry, would love to know if and where AI was used. I want to continue to see the fascination of what you all can do - not what AI can do for you.



_________________
The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it .......

Posted on 28/05/23 12:57:49 PM
DavidMac
Director of Photoshop
Posts: 4898

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
Here's why I think AI should be flagged.

I selected the sidecar from this weeks challenge and then asked for "motor cycle side car" as generative fill. It took three tries to get one good enough (about one minute in all). The image here is exactly as PS generated warts and all. There are some anomalies but with a very few minutes of hand work they could be removed/tidied up and the result could be made to look very convincing. So, with the initial selection, lets say twenty minutes work in all to have a challenge ready image. The version posted in the challenge has been cleaned up using generative fill once more to remove the undesirable parts of its own creation.

If I enter this in the challenge as my work without saying a word about AI, is that honest? To my mind no. Generative fill may be an integral part of PS's tool sets but it's so much more than just a tool. I do not see in all conscience how I can possibly claim this as my work.




_________________
The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it .......

Posted on 28/05/23 3:16:40 PM
lwc
Hole in One
Posts: 2615

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
Hmmm....

Interesting David, sorta your work... you made some decisions as to which version to use, and what areas needed a bit more refinement.

Posted on 28/05/23 4:00:01 PM
DavidMac
Director of Photoshop
Posts: 4898

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
lwc wrote:
Interesting David, sorta your work... you made some decisions as to which version to use, and what areas needed a bit more refinement.


I'm not quite sure to what extent you have your tongue in your cheek Loyd, but if our role in the creation of challenge images was nothing more than that none of us would bother to be here ............... and this challenge probably wouldn't exist.

_________________
The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it .......

Posted on 28/05/23 6:20:30 PM
lwc
Hole in One
Posts: 2615

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
DavidMac wrote:
[quoted]
I'm not quite sure to what extent you have your tongue in your cheek Loyd, but if our role in the creation of challenge images was nothing more than that none of us would bother to be here ............... and this challenge probably wouldn't exist.


50/50% I guess... in these early stages of AI, one would need to be satisfied with somewhat generic images. Like the 'luck of the draw"... if playing poker, one would hope for a 'full house' and end up with a pair of sixes. I spent more time than usual cutting out the motorcycle for this week's challenge, knowing from the start how I planned to use it. I doubt that AI could give me the image I had in mind.

Posted on 28/05/23 9:00:03 PM
DavidMac
Director of Photoshop
Posts: 4898

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
lwc wrote:
I spent more time than usual cutting out the motorcycle for this week's challenge, knowing from the start how I planned to use it. I doubt that AI could give me the image I had in mind.


Absolutely and that is how it should be!

But the majority of adopters of AI may not be so discerning and they will be able to produce passable, and quite possibly on occasions quite remarkable, results with little to no focus or skill. I am having real difficulty accepting that this will 'boost our creativity' as the disciples would have us believe. Bear in mind that what we are seeing now is the crawling infant. It has yet to really learn to walk let alone run or jump. But, as with all infants, it will grow and learn and it will happen so fast we will wonder where the baby went.

I am well aware that I sound like every old fuddy duddy who resists progress and maybe I am, but I genuinely have never come across anything in Photoshop that I find quite so profoundly de-motivating and, on a deeper level, disturbing.

_________________
The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it .......

Posted on 29/05/23 00:36:08 AM
Ben Boardman
Printing Pro
Posts: 448

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
I agree with most of the points of view above. Although I used AI in the Cruel Sea entry, I did add one of my own cloud images and the lighting. For me, the challenge is not a contest (although I do like when I get nice comments) but a way I can improve my work by doing the challenge & learn from others entries, comments and Steve's summary. I enjoy the banter and the feedback between members. I use AI mainly for retouching instead of content aware etc., but see no point in having AI do the entry for me.

Posted on 30/05/23 10:20:38 AM
Frank
Eager Beaver
Posts: 1563

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Re: at last: generative AI inside PS
I prefer to do my own work but I suppose it might help in generating ideas. If it is employed it should be stated to what extent.
Have only just dabbled in it so far and I have seen a tutorial on its abilities for retouching as Ben mentioned above - that looks promising.
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