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Posted on 11/06/08 2:39:53 PM |
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Deborah Morley
Makeover Magician Posts: 1319 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
I've never spent so long looking at empty glasses! And with each glass and viewing I notice something different, so for what it is, here is mine.  |
Posted on 11/06/08 4:27:29 PM |
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Ben Mills
Luminous Luminary Posts: 570 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Not being a scientist I spun a coin to decide whether the edges of the table went up or down when seen through the glass. (I'm not a very good gambler either).  |
Posted on 11/06/08 6:44:57 PM |
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Brian Ruddock
Detail Devil Posts: 31 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Here's a Photoshop 7 attempt.  |
Posted on 11/06/08 8:08:44 PM |
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Mick Malkemus
Meticulous Manipulator Posts: 91 Reply  |
3D study
For what its worth, I did this study in Blender, perhaps it will help someone. I made the basic shapes to see what would appear. Seems I have the refraction backward though.  |
Posted on 11/06/08 9:11:46 PM |
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Mick Malkemus
Meticulous Manipulator Posts: 91 Reply |
Final final answer...
This one stumped me, but I am pretty sure that if water was in the glass, this is close to what it would look like.  |
Posted on 12/06/08 2:57:51 PM |
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katew
Virtual Virtuoso Posts: 678 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Well, after spending many happy hours playing with a printed grid and a selection of tumblers, this was the average refraction I got.  |
Posted on 12/06/08 10:19:59 PM |
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Whaler
Visual Viking Posts: 330 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
This is my attempt at this. I found that you get very different results depending on where you place the glass, so I had to make two glasses trying to illustrate this.  _________________ Why not? |
Posted on 13/06/08 08:05:42 AM |
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Steve Caplin
Administrator Posts: 6938 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
A technical challenge this week, and it's good to see how many of you rose to the occasion - and resisted the temptation to express your creative urges. Many of the entries were astonishingly near the mark, and the amount of detailed research involved is truly impressive. What's pleased me particularly is that this week has seen more collaboration than ever before: it's as if you've all been trying to solve the puzzle together. And that's what this forum is all about, of course. First up was Mick Malkemus, with a glass on its side. No refraction, Mick? The computer model was an excellent idea, and certainly showed the right direction - but Mick then went and complicated things by adding water in his second entry. Excellent water texture here, but slightly too transparent at the edges. A splendid animation from James, whose wasp has flapping wings, a twitching body and even waggling legs. Excellent! The refracted view through the glass meets the 'real' view at the edges: but can this be right? See below. A slightly cloudy glass from mguyer, with plenty of distortion: I like the slight ripple at top left. Again, though, the edges meet the real view - see below. A slight refraction from Luis, with a strong glass and a good sense of distortion. But this isn't how the distortion works in this case! A dramatic distortion from BigVern, who's taken the first leap towards the real thing. Is that left edge just too thin and precise, though? I really like the reflected table in the second entry - a neat touch. A crystal clear glass, and an excellent distortion, from Nick Curtain: this is the closest so far. But those edges are still too crisp (see below). Very subtle changes on the second entry: the flaring edges are better, certainly. A rather more capacious glass from Steve Mac: a good amount of distortion, but again you - in common with many entrants - seem to feel that the refracted view has to meet the real view at the edges. Great edge work from brewell, and the vertical shine on the glass works well. The main view through the body of the glass is unrefracted, though; can this be right? A rare animation from vibeke: great pouring action, and I particularly like the way the shadow matches the height of the juice. In the final frame, though, we seem to be looking up at the juice but down on the glass: shouldn't we be able to see the surface? The right kind of distortion in the second entry - but it needs to be more extreme than this. A beautiful glass from mariong, with a fantastic crystal quality: I especially like the refracted ring of sunlit around the base. The view through it feathers off towards the edges, though: is this right? Powerful refraction from michael sinclair - but it that too much distortion on the left? I like the twinkles, which add - er - sparkle. A strong distortion from Andy L. What we don't get here is the sense of the glass as a cylindrical object; this is a flat plane view. It's a really tricky one! A good looking distortion from tooquilos - and the addition of the straw, umbrella and jug of juice certainly help the view. What's holding the umbrella in place, though? Is it in a stiff breeze? A well considered distortion from Maja - and that glass has taken on an ethereal, glowing quality. But is that a shadow outside the glass on the right? On what? A new member this week - and what a difficult Challenge to begin with! Still, Katherine has produced a strikingly realistic distortion, and the added shadow on the table really helps. The top of the glass seems to fade away a little, though. Welcome to the forum! A minimal distortion from dave.cox: I see the idea, but again there's too little distortion at the edges. And the glass could do with a scrub! An interesting approach from Chris Berry:is that right? The edges shouldn't meet reality - see below. A sparkly glass from Ellen, with a subtle shadow: in this entry, the refraction appears as a ghosted image on the edges. But wouldn't the shape of the glass affect all the light passing through, rather than just some of it? An excellent refraction from Josephine Harvatt: you're too hard on yourself! It's a good shape, with a bold distortion. Glass could do with a bit of a rinse, though. An extraordinary refraction from Charlotte Babb - rather like those images of webs spun by spiders who have been fed caffeine and LSD. Again - it shouldn't meet at the edges (see below). A neat entry from saxwinger, who's filled the glass and added a goldfish. Now there's an interesting idea: what difference would it make if the glass were full of water? I can feel another Challenge coming on! Nice work - the fish looks suitably bemused! The closest image of the week, so far, comes from Deborah Morley, with a refraction that most closely matches the real thing. A crystal clear glass, too, makes this a beautiful piece of work - classy stuff, Deborah! Looks like Ben Mills made the wrong call when he spun the coin: the table doesn't refract that way! A good effect, though, but there does seem to be a vertical fault line in the refraction. A very rippling distortion from Brian Ruddock - which would be fine for more of a hand blown glass, but this one almost achieves optical quality in its evenness. Great edge effect, though, especially on the right. A small amount of distortion from katew, despite extensive research with printed grids (a good approach). Perhaps your glasses are thinner than mine? As Whaler pointed out, you do get very different results depending on where you place the glass. The distortion is along the right lines - but, as I've said earlier, we shouldn't be able to see both the refracted and the undistorted view overlaid. The solution Some very interesting comments made on this problem. Nick Curtain's point about depth of field is certainly entirely appropriate, and Mick Malkemus' computer model shows us a very good approximation how the refraction should look. So here's the real thing: 
There are several points of interest here. First, a number of you assumed that the edges of the refraction should meet the real, undistorted view. But the edges are precisely where the glass is thickest, as we look through it - and so where the distortion should be most pronounced. At the extreme edges, it's so strong that we can't really see through it at all. A few of you thought that the view should fade into the scene behind, and gave your refractions a feathered edge. But that doesn't happen, of course, any more than a view through a magnifying glass would blend into the unmagnified view: refraction affects all the light passing through, not just some of it. So what we end up with is a lens that's much thicker at the edges than in the middle - almost the opposite of a standard convex lens. If we want to be scientific about it, we could pin the mid point of the curve, right in the centre of the glass, to the real view behind - that's where there's no distortion, as we're simply looking through two sheets of glass in the same plane. The closer to the edge, the more the view is distorted, and that's why we get this bizarre shape. The empty glass mystery, part 2 As a supplement to this week's fascinating Challenge, I don't know if any of you are interested in attempting the same view with a glass full of water... if so, I'll photograph the scene and post the results at the end of next week. |
Posted on 13/06/08 08:15:31 AM |
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BigVern
Q Quipper Posts: 674 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Thanks Steve. A really tricky one ... but great fun. Now I see the real glass on the table I can immediately see that I didn't distort the edges enough for the thickening; funny but I looked at a real glass from all sorts of angles and on different surfaces and didn't really notice that point and then it becomes obvious when you explain it. I suffer from that problem of looking but not really seeing, I suppose. The supplement sounds interesting. |
Posted on 13/06/08 08:37:48 AM |
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Nick Curtain
Model Master Posts: 1768 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Thanks for this one Steve, it was certainly a challenge. I'm sure, like me, everyone has been waiting with anticipation to see what the real thing looks like. I freely admit to looking a right idiot standing by the garden table last Saturday morning, viewing a similar glass from all angles. "What are you doing with that glass? - errr nothing dear, just blame Mr Caplin". Would I be correct in thinking that the thicker the glass, the greater the distortion will be?. The glass I used did not produce that level of refraction and perhaps should have tried others. Nick |
Posted on 13/06/08 09:02:14 AM |
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Deborah Morley
Makeover Magician Posts: 1319 Reply |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Many thanks Steve. I did find it difficult to judge the amount of refraction for your glass, all the various glasses I had gave so many different readings. One glass which was recycled and therefore not very pure gave hardly any refraction at all. So I'm glad I got close. The supplement may be a good idea if I have time. At least it means I can sit in the garden and look at a full glass of beer! Not that it will stay like that for long! |
Posted on 13/06/08 11:25:41 AM |
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tooquilos
Wizard of Oz Posts: 2857 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Thank you very much Steve. Im sure those little umbrellas can balance on their own on the side of the glass? Next time Im having a Pina Colada, Ill try it out  |
Posted on 13/06/08 11:31:49 AM |
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Steve Mac
Grunge Genie Posts: 539 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Thanks Steve, that was a great exercise! |
Posted on 13/06/08 12:36:52 PM |
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katew
Virtual Virtuoso Posts: 678 Reply |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Thanks Steve. I tried loads of different glasses and got everything from no refraction at all to the one I entered. Must get some thicker glasses! |
Posted on 13/06/08 1:32:55 PM |
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Mick Malkemus
Meticulous Manipulator Posts: 91 Reply |
amazing
Really a great exercise. I learned a lot in this one. So much we don't see when looking at everyday life. Steve, just accept my water image for next week.  I've lost enough sleep over this project... LOL |
Posted on 13/06/08 5:48:52 PM |
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mariong
Bayern Brushsmith Posts: 36 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Thank you, Steve! Like most of us, I tried it out on a glass of my own - similar in shape, but way thinner and that's pretty much what it looked like in my image. The rim of the original glass alone suggested that it would be a lot thicker and in reality it is even more so. Plus for me it was really hard to tell where the light came from exactly, so I didn't get that right. But aside from refractions etc. I found it a nice challenge just to make the glass look "real" on the table - a great exercise and a very suspenseful week indeed!  |
Posted on 13/06/08 7:46:43 PM |
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brewell
Pixel Pentagrammarian Posts: 752 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
That's a really thick glass, Steve. And it looks like it gets thicker toward the bottom. But I also rushed this one because I was closing in on a project that has months of experimentation behind it. I'll post the results in the Reader's Gallery later in the week. _________________ Is it necessary? Does it work? |
Posted on 13/06/08 8:48:34 PM |
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katherine
* Posts: 5 Reply |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
thank you for your comments, I was working with a glass on my wooden desk, so i didnt account for the distortion of the patternation fully. I think i will spend more time over the next technical task.... I am looking forward to a creative challange! |
Posted on 13/06/08 10:48:48 PM |
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Whaler
Visual Viking Posts: 330 Reply |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
Steve, you're right about that, of course! I should've seen that. _________________ Why not? |
Posted on 13/06/08 11:23:41 PM |
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chris berry
Overhead Overlord Posts: 724 Reply  |
Re: Contest 201: The empty glass mystery
"An interesting approach from Chris Berry:is that right? The edges shouldn't meet reality - see below." Brilliant! I missed that completely. A brilliant challenge - and a really good lesson. I put a glass on a table and looked closely at it too! (Must've had a tad too much wine that day) Chris PS I though it was a really good crop of entries this week. |
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